Jack Wilson

Robby Incmikoski: When I ask some of these questions, Jack, I’m going to know the answer, and you’re going to know it, too. But it’s just to give insight for the fans. So if I ask something that comes off as a little obvious, just know that I’m not asking a stupid question.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, no problem. No, all good.

Robby Incmikoski: Hey, first of all, the one thing I want to ask you, Jack, having played 12 years in the big leagues—13 years, however long you played in the big leagues—what is it like now kind of living that life through your son? What is that experience like?

Jack Wilson: It’s amazing. I think it’s just been really cool to reflect on going back and seeing pictures and videos of him in little Pirate uniforms and coming to the stadium. I remember there was a year where I put my family right behind home plate instead of up in the family section—we bought season tickets at PNC Park—so that I could connect with him. I remember getting big hits or scoring big runs and being able to see and look over at Jacob, and he’s in big-league stadiums. Now he’s looking over at me when I travel out to go see him or whatnot.

So it’s just really cool to see that he just has such a love for the game that’s been instilled in him. I never knew at a young age; I just thought he loved baseball, but that love kept going, and he kept working really hard in high school and in college to get to where he’s at. It’s pretty fun to watch, and it’s really fun going to stadiums that technically I’ve never been in as a fan, because I’ve only been on the field or in the clubhouse. So going to Wrigley Field to watch him play the Cubs was completely different, because I actually got to sit in the stands and go get food and walk around the stadium, which I had never done before. So it’s been pretty fun to follow him, and he’s just getting started. He’s working hard—he’s at the gym right now, so he’s working hard, getting ready for next year.

Robby Incmikoski: Which is amazing, and I’m not surprised by any of that. Which leads me—I have so many questions where I want to give fans insight that they’re not going to get anywhere else, other than from a guy who played the game and sees it from a lens of how Little League parents view their kids. They want to sit in a folding chair, a camping chair, be close, and watch their kids. What motivated you and your family to do that when you were playing in the big leagues—to have Jacob and your family close by? What motivated you guys to do that?

Jack Wilson: I think it was just that the lifestyle is so separate. We’re always gone, staying in these big, nice hotels in these big cities, and you have this separation. So we made a rule that we wouldn’t be separated for more than six days at a time.

They would come on the road all the time, so that’s where, really, I got to spend a lot of time with them—on the road. They’ve been to a whole bunch of stadiums, but spending time with them before I left for the field in a hotel—we would always get two rooms, because I’d always go to bed really late, because after the game I needed time to wind down, but meanwhile they’re tired. So we would get two adjoining rooms in the hotel.

Fortunately enough, I was able to start—I was 23 when I broke in, and I was 35 when I was done. So fortunately, Jacob was right around 10 going on 11. That was actually—there were a bunch of reasons for retiring and not continuing on with that utility role, backup infielder thing that some guys do toward the end of their career. But I had kids that played soccer and played baseball, and I was missing a lot of that.

So it was perfect timing to kind of jump into coaching and being a dad, and super soccer Saturdays with all three of our kids playing soccer. We were able to keep our family really close for that whole time, and still to this day it was one of the best decisions we ever made.

Robby Incmikoski: Jack, how do you kind of…some things are bigger than the game of baseball. Obviously, baseball is how you guys make your living, how you support your family. We understand the business side, the money side, all that. But from a life perspective, how cool is it to see your son sitting in the stands while you’re playing, and now for you to be in the stands so close, watching him play? What do you make of that dynamic?

Jack Wilson: It’s really special. It is. I think I had the chance to coach with him for one year in college at Grand Canyon, but the two years prior to that, I would go to a lot of his games on the road. I just like to watch him play—it’s the best thing in the world to watch your kids play. My daughters play soccer; I love watching them play soccer. But obviously it’s a different level. Then him getting drafted—I’m going out to the Midwest League, where I played in, and he’s playing in the Midwest League.

We got to visit around this year; it was his first full season, and by the break he was in the big leagues, which was pretty nuts. I don’t think it’s really hit me yet, because it went so fast. He got drafted, and a year later he’s in the big leagues, so it went so fast. So I haven’t really grasped it yet, I think, but it’s so special because we have this relationship where I can see him on the field and he always likes to know where I’m sitting.

It was a lot easier to do when he was in college and in high school—I was his coach. But we’re able to kind of look at each other and have a full conversation with movements. Even in Chicago, he looked at me in the stands, and he was leading off the game against their Japanese left-handed pitcher—I’m blanking on his name—but he kind of just nodded at me and tilted his head, and I’m like, “He’s swinging first pitch.” We have this way of communicating.

Even from me in the stands, I can watch the guy warm up and almost give him a little scouting report. I’m like, “Dude, he’s staying away with the cutter; that’s his best pitch.” And Jacob would nod his head. It’s really a fun kind of interaction throughout the game that’s not just me watching him. Like I said, we can have a full conversation with each other just by movements of our body.

Robby Incmikoski: What’s amazing is Joe Musgrove—his mom’s a really good whistler, and he would know on days when he’s not pitching but just kind of hanging over the top rail of the dugout: if he hears the whistle, he knows to turn around because that means Mom got here, or he looks back at Mom and Dad. It’s funny you say that, because you’re not the first person to say that about those signals.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, it’s really cool to have that connection amidst all the chaos that’s going on around us and the chaos of the game and how many people are there. You can have those little things that almost make it like it’s normal, because it’s a stage; it’s entertainment. It’s not normal—only a certain amount of people get to do this for a living and be in that situation.

So when we have that connection with our family in the stands or whatnot, it kind of brings some real-life normality to our lives.

Robby Incmikoski: Yes, no doubt. I don’t know if you were there, but were you at the final series against the Rangers in Oakland? Were you there?

Jack Wilson: I was not. No, I went to the series against the Yankees prior to that.

Robby Incmikoski: Jack, if Jacob has time, can I do an interview with him at some point? He’s part of history as a rookie, you know what I mean? That’s crazy.

Jack Wilson: I’m sure. Yeah, he’d be fine with that, no doubt. And he’s pretty close with Wyatt Langford, too, because they played on the national team together.

Robby Incmikoski: Yeah, I think Wyatt mentioned that to me. I was with the Rangers this year. I remember Wyatt; he’s kind of a quiet guy, but I remember him saying that. I would love to talk to Jacob about that.

Anyway, the other thing I want to touch on too, because I want to give fans an insight: we’ve showed this on TV in my years with the Pirates—I don’t know if it was a full infield, but we have the video of you guys working on double plays, like you guys working on infield drills that you did at your house, right? The Bednars built a pitching mound for their two boys, and their daughter’s a softball player, so all three kids were able to play on the mound outside. I know why you’re doing that, but can you give fans an insight? Because, Jack, you were an elite defender, one of the greatest defenders to ever play the game—there’s no question about that—and your son’s trademark is probably going to be defense, too, at some point, given how hard he’s worked at it his whole life. How much does that help—working on defense at home and being able to put the time in to perfect your craft?

Jack Wilson: I mean, it’s—right. The funny thing is, I originally built that house in 2004. I built the backyard and I built a cage and a gym because it was the whole connectivity thing. I was sick of going to the gym in the offseason—going to the gym, then finding a baseball field to go work—and so I bought this basically horse property and converted it into an entire workout facility in the backyard. At the time, Jacob was only four—so he was only three-and-a-half, four—so I think I had my youngest daughter, Jaden. We already had her, but it was primarily for that.

But then as time went on, it really became obvious that I have three kids who love to play sports; I didn’t know if they were or not, but they’re back there all the time. So I think Jacob really utilized that toward the years. He was always playing tennis-ball baseball in the backyard with his friends. Most of our travel-ball practices were back there. We didn’t have to worry about a field because it was lit.

I think the biggest thing for him is understanding that the one thing that can keep you from being elite and being in a conversation of the best players is defense. You can hit; people say, “They’ll find you a position,” but that is not true, especially if you want to play shortstop or you want to play catcher. You’ve got to be a better defender than everybody else. Those are the two positions. Obviously, he wanted to play shortstop like his dad, so I told him, “Hey, we have a backyard here. We had an automatic ground-ball machine—you didn’t even need someone to hit them to you. It was a machine that would just move around and shoot ground balls. It’s called FungoMan (or Fungo, you can look it up). We bought one of those.”

And to his credit, he utilizes it. I said, “Great defenders will always be passionate about defense; they will work at defense.” And I said, “Basically, if you want to be really good at defense, if you take a ground ball for every 10 swings, you’re going to be really good.” Because most people tend to really focus on the offensive side—which obviously is important, because in the game of Major League Baseball, the bottom line is that defense isn’t always valued, but it’s the one thing that’ll keep you from being a big leaguer. It’s funny how it works out: everything is so offensive, and every dad is like, “Let’s play offense, let’s go hit,” and I’m like, “Yeah, we can hit. You look like you have really good hand-eye coordination. That’s great. But if you want to be a complete player, these are the things we have to do.”

I said, “You’re a better hitter than I am; I think you’re going to be a better hitter than I was. And he’s on that track to be better than I was. But this is going to be the X-factor for anybody who wants to play in the infield. That X-factor is that glove. If you can get really good defensively, you’re going to jump some guys who maybe are big prospects.” And that’s what happened for him in the draft. People were like, “Oh, he did this on the national team. He hit this at GCU. He was kind of a super-utility guy on the national team.” But it was like, “This guy’s a lockdown defender.” And it’s because he takes pride in being a defender. He also hits and has good hand-eye coordination—he puts the ball in play—but he loves defense. He loves being a great defender, and that’s why he’s good.

Robby Incmikoski: Hitting .265 and playing elite defense is no slouch. Also, to do it for 12 years like you did in your career—no slouch. I have a question, and you don’t necessarily have to answer this, but I’m just curious: how the f*** did you not win a Gold Glove? How is that possible?

Jack Wilson: You know what—everything goes by. Then, was it yesterday or two days ago it came out? And I just… I get it. It’s like a burnt wound from back in the day. I love how the metrics are used now, because there’s more defensive metrics that would have been really in my favor back in the day. I felt like for the longest time it was just a name award, where if you’d won it before, they would just continue to give it to you. It tended to be, “Wow, all the best offensive guys are winning these awards.” I’m like, “That’s a Silver Slugger.” But I think I got second place five times, and I think four of the five I had way better numbers than the guys who went in front of me. But it is what it is.

My job was to play really good defense and help my pitchers out as much as I could. But it was a tough pill to swallow each year, when you looked at it and you’re like, “All right, this was the year.” Honestly, I think the year that I really was going to break through was 2009, but because I got traded to the American League, I was ineligible. And that was the year that I thought I had the best chance. I was like, “This is going to be the year.” I had Perry Hill; he really locked me in. Everything was going well. I was making all the routine plays, plus some really cool plays too, but I was like, “This is it.” And then when I got traded, I kind of got off the ballot. It was kind of a bummer, but it is what it is. As long as I… I mean, I played as hard as I could, tried to do the best I could. And I think Jacob, when I retired, gave me a little mini Gold Glove, so that’s what I have. I’ll take it.

Robby Incmikoski: The other thing too I want to ask—and are you okay on time? Can I run a couple more questions?

Jack Wilson: You’re good. You’re fine. Yeah, we’re good.

Robby Incmikoski: All right, because this is unbelievable stuff. By the way, you’re the 62nd interview we’ve done. We’re going to talk to about 130 people for this book. We just talked to—remember Kevin Stocker, speaking of shortstops? We talked to him today.

Jack Wilson: Mhm, yeah, yeah.

Robby Incmikoski: He’s a Phillies broadcaster. We talked about the ’93 World Series—he played in Toronto against the Blue Jays. He was the starting shortstop on that team. Anyway, and forgive me, I’m kind of going off the beaten path a little bit, but with you and Freddy together, Jack, people still to this day talk about you two and how you impacted their fandom. They loved watching you. You guys were magicians in the middle infield; you made plays. When I watch—at first it was like Rey Ordóñez, Omar Vizquel when I was a kid, then Nomar. I love shortstops. I love watching athleticism and guys just make stupid plays. I never get tired of watching people perfect their craft. And for guys like you who were elite at it—so forgive me if this question isn’t very formal—how do you make “magician” plays? Is it instinct? Because you’d come up and make… I’d watch highlight reels of you, and you have no business making that play, and you made it. How does that stuff happen, right?

Jack Wilson: I don’t know. It’s funny. I was a soccer player my whole life. I didn’t really get into baseball until after I graduated high school. I played it—I only played it because soccer season was over. I played club my whole life. So the footwork is obviously the big deal—being able to hit the ground, get back up, quick feet. Soccer gave me that because I played on a very high-level travel team, a little soccer team for the longest time. We were ranked nationally, number two in the state every year in California.

Robby Incmikoski: And was this in California, yeah—Southern California?

Jack Wilson: Yeah, Southern California. Los Vírgenes Falcons was the name of the team. That was out of Agoura, California. We had guys from Westlake, Thousand Oaks, mostly Westlake, where a lot of the guys were. I was the only one from Thousand Oaks. It was a team—I believe we had maybe nine or ten guys eventually go pro in soccer. They were all soccer players. I was actually the only one that played baseball. So I would miss some tournaments every now and then.

But the footwork, the quickness—I was a striker, so I played up front, and everything in soccer is about anticipating. As a goal scorer, everything is about looking around and anticipating where the ball is, where it could go, and where I need to be. That is the same exact thing when you’re talking about making plays. You have to anticipate before the pitch is made, where you think it’s going to go. So your pitcher—what kind of movement they have—plus whatever the hitter’s scouting report is, equals X. For instance, Paul Maholm’s throwing his big curveball at 74 mph. A guy like Pujols is up. I’m already shaded to Pujols’s pull side, but that curveball’s 74 mph, it’s a big looper, so he’s going to be more out in front. I’m anticipating even more going to the pull side.

So those two things—the footwork, and then obviously I always worked hard on the exchange. Anytime I played catch, I was getting the ball out of my glove as fast as possible, always practicing how fast I could be, because that’s what it comes down to also. You’ve got to get to it, you’ve got to get your body in a place to throw, but you’ve got to get that ball out of your glove so fast into your throwing hand.

Those were the combo things, and people said, “Wow, you had a lot of range.” But I actually didn’t—it was more the fact that I had quick feet, I could get to places fast, but I was also anticipating being in a spot and I would cheat to get there. I would kind of move as the pitch was coming, so I’d already have a step or two on the play before the ball was hit. So I would anticipate, “Okay, Paul Maholm’s curveball plus Pujols’s strengths, that equals he’s probably going to roll this over to the pull side.”

That allowed me to get to a lot of balls that I wouldn’t normally have gotten to if I was just standing there. Honestly, sometimes I was wrong. Sometimes I’d lean right and it got hit left, and then you go, “Wait, why didn’t you get that ball? He was right there—why didn’t he get it?” So there is that. Luckily for me, more times than not I’m using the information to be right, which is good. But sometimes I’m wrong, and I’m okay with being wrong. If I’m worried about being wrong, I’m not going to be as aggressive on what my instincts are telling me—which I think is a lost art in baseball now, because they’re being told where to play every single pitch. Everything’s all robotic, and I think the freedom of seeing the game, understanding, “I’m standing here, but I don’t think that matches what he’s throwing right here.” Back in the day we had freedom. I had Perry Hill, and I had great coaches who allowed me to have that freedom, which was great.

Robby Incmikoski: I’ve never heard a bad word said—I’ve never worked with him, but I’ve met him a couple of times. I’ve never heard one single bad word said about Perry Hill by anyone. Whenever you hear his name, they’re like, “Oh my God, I love him.” Everybody loves that guy.

Jack Wilson: He’s the best. He’s the best.

Robby Incmikoski: He’s still with the Mariners—I talked to him last year. I went up and introduced myself because I’m like, “Perry, everyone has so many good things to say—I just want to introduce myself and say hello.”

Jack Wilson: Yeah, yeah.

Robby Incmikoski: All right, first of all, that is amazing insight, so thank you for that. Number one, that’s incredible for fans. I want to talk to you about the first game at PNC Park. I didn’t realize at the time—until I looked up your stats—that was your first home game as a big leaguer: the first ever game at PNC Park, which is widely regarded as the most beautiful ballpark in America. Jack, what do you remember about that day? Do you remember standing on the line, do you remember taking the field? I know you guys didn’t win the game; I’m not harping on that. But Willie died at 2 or 3 in the morning, something like that. So Willie dies…there’s some symmetry, or blessing, or however you want to say it, that Willie passes away on opening day at PNC Park, and it goes on to be this legendary ballpark to this day—24 plus years later. What do you recall?

Jack Wilson: I mean, we got lucky because we played a couple games—we played an exhibition series against the Mets at PNC Park. So the freshness was kind of broken a little bit, because there were a lot of people there too, because everybody wanted to see the park. So it was kind of a bummer that the first game wasn’t truly a 100% fresh game, because fans got a chance to see it a week prior when we played the Mets in two exhibition games to end spring training. But that was nice for me, because that kind of broke the ice for me. This was going to be the first time I’d ever played in a stadium with a lot of people, so I got that break-in nice even before I went to Cincinnati to actually play in the big leagues.

We played three games in Cincinnati, so I kind of got a little bit of the jitters out, but then coming home, I remember I think Greg Brown, or was it Lanny Frattare—maybe Greg Brown—was on the field announcing the lineup. I don’t know if it was Lanny, but they were on the field announcing the lineup. Usually that’s Brownie, but I’m not sure in 2001.

When he announced my name, he announced me as “the rookie,” which I thought was really cool. It was a moment where it’s like, he could have just said, “Batting eighth, shortstop, number 12,” but he was like, “the rookie.” I thought that was really cool of him to do that and make that a special part of the introduction and stuff like that. I just remember the place was packed, and it was great.

For me, I had a different perspective because I’m coming from the West Coast, where I’ve never been to Three Rivers. So this freshness that the city and these players are going through—I had a whole bunch of issues going on with being in the big leagues straight out of Double-A. I had a lot of stuff going on in my head, but it was just exciting. It was my first big-league home game, the first official day of the stadium, and I’ll always have that. That’s always special to me. When PNC Park comes up, it’s always a special place in my heart, because it was almost like we were both rookies—the stadium and myself at the same time, in the same year. The paint was super fresh, all the underground tunnels to get to the clubhouse had that fresh paint smell. It’s got that little bitterness when it’s cold outside—those tunnels are a little colder in April. I just remember it very vividly, but just being excited to be a part of it.

Robby Incmikoski: How cool is that, Jack? You’re a dozen years removed from playing the game. When you look back on those moments—and I’ve talked to a lot of retired players now, and they say it’s interesting how they reflect on it. Because when guys are playing, you’re in it, right? You’re not thinking about how special is this or what is this going to look like in 10, 15, 20 years. So now I ask you, as a guy who’s 23 years removed from that day, how cool is it to share the opening of that ballpark as a rookie? That was the first home game you ever played as a big leaguer.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, yeah. It is cool. Actually, Jacob and I were just talking about it a couple days ago, because we found out that Oakland’s coming on September 19, 20, and 21 next year. So it’s a big deal for—almost the same thing for him, if Jake’s on the team next year and he’s doing his thing, it’ll be his first game at PNC Park. It almost feels the same way as thinking about my first game at PNC Park. I know it’s going to be super emotional for him, because he spent so much time there.

So I look back, and it’s amazing that all these new stadiums that have been built since then still don’t compare to PNC Park, which is really a great job by Kevin McClatchy and the designers of that stadium. Usually you get 20-some years out, and now this will be year 25—season 25—and there are some places talking about, “When are we going to get a new one?” They start making plans for a new one. I don’t think that’s going to happen there. I don’t think that’s going to be one of those places that ever goes anywhere.

You can upgrade it—maybe you can do things here and there with different areas—but that place is going to go down as a Wrigley Field type, a Dodger Stadium type, because you’re 25 years later, and it’s still regarded as the best stadium. And there’s probably been what, six or seven new ones since 2001? Washington got a new one; Cincinnati had a new one; they got one the following year. Yankee Stadium, Milwaukee—same year.

Robby Incmikoski: …because Sean Casey had the first hit in Pittsburgh and Milwaukee. He’s the only player in the history of Major League Baseball with the first hit in two ballparks.

Jack Wilson: No way. I didn’t know that.

Robby Incmikoski: He would have had three, but somebody got a hit ahead of him in Cincinnati.

Jack Wilson: Brutal.

Robby Incmikoski: Yeah, he played that first game—he played, but didn’t get the first hit. Anyway, let me ask you this: what do you remember from a playing standpoint—like, what was the infield like, what was the batter’s eye like, what did you have to pay attention to baseball-wise, both on offense and defense?

Jack Wilson: It was because of all the rain they were anticipating getting over the course of April and the early parts of the season, the grass was a little bit longer than anything I’d played on. Wrigley Field’s grass was really long, too, but I feel like that grass at PNC was really difficult to hit a ball through, out to a very, very big left field.

On the defensive side, it was the grass, and then it was the notch down the left-field line—how it would get in. So if a guy hit a ball down the line and it was curving—if they got out in front of an off-speed pitch or whatever, turned it past third base—the shortstop would actually have the best chance to get out there to hit that notch that would bounce back. So I was always used to doing that. That was one of the first things I noticed: ball down the line, hooked fair, the left fielder’s going to head this way; he might head beyond it just in case it sneaks by, because his peripheral might not be good enough to see if that ball’s going to hit or not. So I realized I was going to be the best option to jet to the outfield anytime a ball got hit down the left-field line. And if it missed it, I’d just line up to third, so it was no big deal. Stuff like that.

Short porch in right—Giles loved that, and then all the righties hated it. I mean, it’s still one of the biggest left-centers in the game. 390, 387—whatever it is—to left-center is just so far out there. You had to have a completely different swing at PNC Park than you had at other places, because it was far out there. That was the one thing—I’d be like, “Come on, we don’t have to have this thing that big.” That was one of the things I noticed early on.

But everything else, the hitter’s eye—big green wall. It had the trees back in the day. They had little trees. Now I think it just says “Pirates.” But before, they were trees, and it was pretty cool. It was actually good, though, because when they took out the trees, in the first couple innings the sun hit the green wall in a certain way, and it would get too bright. It was really difficult to see in the first couple innings as a hitter. So I actually benefited when I was hitting toward the end of the lineup, because that was gone by the time I’d get up in the third inning possibly. But when the trees were there, it was better because it wasn’t as bright; it would just be little sections.

Robby Incmikoski: That is very interesting. Let’s move on, because I want to get you out of here. Let’s talk a little bit about playing at Safeco Field in Seattle (T-Mobile Park). What was it like going from team to team, and what adjustments did you have to make? Just what is it like for a player coming in, starting in Seattle—you’re a key player they’re going to be counting on to help them win games—what is key for you, and what is that acclimation process like to a new home ballpark, a new clubhouse, everything for you baseball-wise?

Jack Wilson: Yeah, it was almost the same as when I got traded to Pittsburgh and stepping into the clubhouse for the first time. The difference is I had nine years under my belt, so they knew what they were getting, what kind of player they were getting. I think the biggest thing back then was the American League was so different than the National League, with the DH. It was a completely different style of baseball.

There was no—very rare—the only team that would bunt was the Angels, because Mike Scioscia played in his career. But there was no bunt plays, there wasn’t… I was that 2-8 hole guy: hit-and-run, move guys over, bunt. That style of game wasn’t played in the American League at that time, so it was really tough to find my identity on what the team was going to have me do. Now I’m hitting ninth, Ichiro’s going to be behind me, which is different than hitting eighth with the pitcher behind you. But even then, I was like, “No one ever sac bunts. No one really even bunts for hits anymore. It’s just a different style of game.”

I actually did not enjoy it at all. I enjoyed the National League type of game, because that’s the way you play in high school, that’s the way you play in college—moving guys over, the little intricacies of an offense. That was completely gone because you’re adding this unbelievable hitter in a DH, and then that expands the rest of the lineup. So I actually didn’t enjoy it very much going to Seattle, just because I was a National League type of player, and that style of game did not fit what I did. So it was kind of like, “I don’t really know what I’m supposed to do here.”

Robby Incmikoski: How did you adjust?

Jack Wilson: I was terrible. I couldn’t adjust, because I didn’t know. I still would bunt for base hits, because that was part of my game. That’s what I liked to do. I’d still try to get guys over with two outs, but that guy is so much more valuable in the National League. I used to run bunt plays in Pittsburgh. I used to be like, “Hey, we should run this here, because this and this,” and Freddy would dive in at third base to get a pitcher to bunt to him, and we would turn double plays on a regular sac bunt from a pitcher. All of that was gone at that time in the American League. It wasn’t even cool playing defense either. There was just no strategy. It was “hit ball far,” you know? The intricacies of the game just weren’t there, and for a player like me, that was kind of my identity. That’s what I could do best: get a ball to the right side and bunt guys over, call defensive plays or make shifts or whatever, and all that was gone.

Robby Incmikoski: Are you okay—can we tell that story in the book?

Jack Wilson: I don’t—yeah, I tell people all the time Seattle was terrible simply because I didn’t know how to make the adjustment, because it would’ve been a completely different player than I’d spent my nine years in the big leagues being—squeezing, push bunt, drag bunt, bunt plays, all that stuff.

Robby Incmikoski: Which is amazing, because you had some rough years, but you’re a 23-and-a-half WAR player. Do you realize how hard that is to do? It means you were really good.

Jack Wilson: I don’t even know what that means. I don’t know what WAR is—I still can’t figure it out. I see it comes up, I’m like, “What is…?”

Robby Incmikoski: It means you were really, really good. That means any team would be happy to have you on their team. Because I look at middle relievers, right—some have a WAR of four, five, six, seven, eight. We interviewed Tony Watson—he has a 13. That shows your durability, productivity, answering the bell every day. He’s a pitcher—he’d make 70, 75 appearances. That’s you playing 157 games, you know what I’m saying? For a pitcher, you can’t run a pitcher out there 100 times obviously; you’ll kill his arm. But to do that, that’s wild.

In ’04, you played in the All-Star Game in Houston.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, I just wanted to get autographs.

Robby Incmikoski: It was your one—and somehow your only—All-Star appearance, which is honestly offensive even to look at, but what was it like stepping into that clubhouse with the greatest players in the world? What do you remember?

Jack Wilson: I was like, “Man…” I mean, I still have it. It’s hanging up right here behind me—it’s the jersey. You can see that’s my All-Star jersey.

Robby Incmikoski: Yeah, I see the black-sleeve sleeveless.

Jack Wilson: But it’s signed by all the players on the National League team.

Robby Incmikoski: I can’t tell, but yeah? Really?

Jack Wilson: Yeah. Everybody put their jersey out there in the signing room, and all the guys signed it. So it’s Clemens, Bonds, Sosa— all the guys are on that jersey. It’s still one of the coolest things I’ve ever gone through. I was completely exhausted—it was such a packed three days, because I wasn’t a big name, so when they want to do interviews with you on ESPN and stuff like that, you literally got the 6:15 a.m. slot. Pujols is going at noon, Sosa’s at 1. But it’s my first time there, I’m a small fish in a big pond, so you’re at 6 a.m.

Robby Incmikoski: You and Ken Harvey are early.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, we’re getting there super early and doing all that stuff, and you have so much adrenaline because you’re like, “This is amazing; it’s so surreal to be here,” especially being in Houston, which was in the Central at the time—I played so many games there, so it was really weird wearing a home jersey in Houston. But I loved every bit of it, and just got to spend a lot of time with Barry Larkin, talking to him, Mark Loretta—guys that I really respected and admired. Just to be out there on the field with them—an incredible experience.

Robby Incmikoski: When you’re sitting there talking to a guy who eventually ends up in the Hall of Fame—Barry Larkin—what do two Major League players talk about in a scenario like that? How much is “How’s your family?” and how much is “Hey, Barry, what works for you on defense?” Or is it just reciprocating?

Jack Wilson: Yeah, we were just—I was sitting down, and he actually came and sat next to me. I feel like since he was there my rookie year—I debuted against Barry Larkin. That was my very first big-league game; he was the shortstop for the Reds—so we had four years of playing against each other. He was retiring after 2004, so we had that connection and a relationship through those four years because we would play Cincinnati so much, and being shortstops, we already had that common ground. He was almost somebody I could go to for anything, even standing on base during a pitching change or he hits a double—just talking. He was such a great, classy person, and he was so accommodating to me.

When I was there, I felt like he really wanted to make me feel comfortable—that I belonged. So I was sitting there just eating, and he came and sat next to me, and I felt like it was the coolest thing in the world—where Barry came, and everybody was eating, and he came and sat right next to me. It was the coolest thing. And he actually went up to Jack McKeon, who was the manager, and Jack was like, “Obviously we’re going to get Barry Larkin in the lineup.” Rentería started that game, so you’ve got three shortstops: Rentería, myself, and Barry. Barry had gone up to McKeon and said, “Hey, pinch-hitting is good, I don’t want to play the field—let the kid have it.” Basically was telling him, “Hey, let Jack be out there,” because I was hitting .333 at the time. I think Rentería was hitting .270, he was starting, Barry was hitting .305 or .306. He was like, “He’s had an unreal year; he should be on the field for the second half of the game. Don’t worry about me—just give me a pinch-hit.” That was his idea.

Robby Incmikoski: …

Jack Wilson: Barry never went out in the field—he got his pinch-hit and came back in—but he was the one who told McKeon that he wanted me to get the time on the field, which I thought, to this day, was incredibly special.

Robby Incmikoski: That’s what I was going to say—what did that gesture…? We saw this—Marcus Semien did this to a kid, Jonathan Ornelas, this year with the Rangers. We were in Oakland—this kid had just been called up, he had a couple brief cups of coffee, and it was a blowout game. Semien, which he never does, pulled himself—he plays 162 every year for the most part. I think he’s missed maybe 10 games his whole career, which is amazing. And I talked to Ornelas about what that meant to him. So in the All-Star Game, on the biggest stage of baseball—except the World Series—what did that gesture mean?

Jack Wilson: It meant—I didn’t find out until after the fact. I didn’t find out until Jack McKeon told me that afterward. So that just made it even more special that one of the best top-10 shortstops of all time went out of his way to include me, where he could have been like, “This is my swan song, my last All-Star Game.” He’s going to the Hall of Fame, and for him to make that gesture to a young guy who felt like he was a rookie in that clubhouse with everybody else… I mean, still to this day, I’m extremely thankful for what he meant to me in those years we got to play against each other and the All-Star Game.

Robby Incmikoski: Jack, don’t think I lack awareness here—please accept my apologies for keeping you this long. This is just so good.

Jack Wilson: No, you’re good. I got nothing. We got some installers in the front yard, we’re good.

Robby Incmikoski: Three more minutes, we’re out of here. One other thing—if you don’t mind, when we’re done, if I have your permission, would you send me a photo of that jersey? And if I have your permission, can we include that in the book? I want to put your All-Star Game photo in there. Because what we’re doing, Jack, is each ballpark’s a chapter, and we’re highlighting certain things. For example, for San Francisco I interviewed Mike Bacsik, who gave up Barry Bonds’s 756, right?

Jack Wilson: Right, right.

Robby Incmikoski: So even though you’re on the wrong side of history, it’s his perspective—he gave me great detail, what it was like, the tributes, how he sat in the dugout for 10 minutes, how Tom was trying to get a taxi and… People recognized it was him who gave up the homer. He was real gracious, giving honest and open answers about it. And that’s the coolest thing about this book—fans are going to have an insight they’d never otherwise have. So each ballpark is a chapter, and we’re just telling stories, whether it’s big moments that occurred there, or ushers, vendors—like beer vendors, lemonade vendors, fans. I’m tracking down a lemonade vendor in Arizona that makes everybody laugh, right? We’re all-encompassing. Now I’m going after players, because it’s the offseason and it’s just easier to get players.

But just know that that story is going to be the highlight of telling the Houston story—that Barry Larkin gesture like that for a younger, first-time All-Star.

Jack Wilson: Awesome.

Robby Incmikoski: One other thing about the All-Star Game before we move on to the final topic—you faced Mariano Rivera in the All-Star Game, the greatest closer in the history of baseball.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, why is he coming in the sixth? Why are we doing this? Or the seventh? My second at-bat was…

Robby Incmikoski: He was in the ninth inning on the biggest stage.

Jack Wilson: Did he come in the ninth? I don’t think so.

Robby Incmikoski: I’m going to look it up right now. Let me tell you in a second.

Jack Wilson: You might be right.

Robby Incmikoski: In the ninth inning, Rivera replaced Hideki Matsui. Helton batted in front of you, you batted second, popped out to second, and then Thome popped out to short.

Jack Wilson: Okay. He did. All right. Ted Lilly…

Robby Incmikoski: Your other at-bat was a deep fly-out off Ted Lilly.

Jack Wilson: Right, okay, yeah. So I went up—the catcher, I always blank on his name, who was the switch-hitting catcher for Cleveland who was catching? Martinez?

Robby Incmikoski: Yeah, it was Pudge and Victor. Those were the two catchers.

Jack Wilson: Right. So I’m walking up and I’m digging in to face Mariano, which I had faced before in spring training all the time in Tampa. So I was digging in, and I looked at Victor, and I’m like, “Hey, what are the chances we just get a four-seamer right here?” and he just started laughing. I’m like, “All right, fine.” So I said, “Okay, he’s going to throw the cutter, let me just shoot this to right real quick. I’ll just let it get deep and shoot it to right, be a pro hitter.” First pitch cutter, and I shot it over the first-base dugout. I’m like, “All right, that’s probably not going to work.” So then maybe I’ll try to get out in front of it, and that’s when I got too out in front of it and popped out to second. He’s never fun to face. They were up big—I don’t think it was a save situation; they had put up some runs early.

Robby Incmikoski: It was 9 to 4—they scored six in the first.

Jack Wilson: Right, so that’s why. Roger got hit up a little bit. I remember Ichiro led off with a triple, I think. Manny hit a two-run homer, Soriano hit a homer. So yeah, that lineup—was that the full Yankees infield that year? A-Rod, Jeter, Soriano, and Giambi. So…

Robby Incmikoski: Yes, it was. I forgot about that. Right, you’re right.

Jack Wilson: That’s a good lineup. But yeah, it was—

Robby Incmikoski: That’s a cool experience.

Jack Wilson: It was, yeah. It is, yes.

Robby Incmikoski: I mean, how cool is it to tell your kids, and eventually grandkids, “Hey, your dad faced the greatest closer in the world in an All-Star Game”?

Jack Wilson: Yeah, in the All-Star Game. I wish I got—dang, I honestly was hoping to go back a couple more times. It just didn’t work out that way.

Robby Incmikoski: Which is a crime against baseball humanity that that didn’t happen. Last thing—this is going to sound ridiculous, and I’m asking as part of my…not shtick, but I love asking ridiculous questions, because sometimes that’s when you get the best answer. How would you describe— We get some funny answers. I love hearing people say, “Jack, what is ‘the ass,’ and how do you describe it in the game of baseball?” So this is for the fans—a lot of people don’t realize, “He had the ass.” What do you say?

Jack Wilson: I think for me—right, I’ll tell you what made me have it: having a bad defensive day. That’s pretty much—’cause pitching’s hard, my job is to play defense, that was my thing. If I made an error, yeah, I got it big time. If they want to know what that feels like, this is what I would say: it’s like if you went to your favorite fast-food place and ordered your favorite items ever, and then you got back to the house and it was someone else’s order. How upset you would be, and how mad you would be, because you’re not driving back, but you were so set—say it was your first time going to the West Coast and you wanted to go to In-N-Out, and everybody’s talking about In-N-Out. You have one, you’re like, “This is the greatest burger ever.” Then the next time you go, you order your Double-Double with everything and your fries and your drink, and then you get back and realize you got the grass-fed fake patty that’s wrapped in lettuce.

Robby Incmikoski: That is the best answer of “the ass.”

Jack Wilson: You just don’t have time to go back, and you’re just hungry. That’s how someone would feel. That would be, “My gosh.”

Robby Incmikoski: I got Dallas Braden next week.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, I spent a lot of time with him—I got to see him a bunch.

Robby Incmikoski: I got Dallas… yeah, I think next week. He texted me the other day, I can’t wait to hear what he has to say about that.

Jack Wilson: He’s probably my favorite guy. Obviously, I watch a lot of A’s baseball now, but when a former player comes back and talks the game on TV, as a former player that gets in front of the microphone, he’s by far my favorite. And even more so—the guy’s a left-handed pitcher, but his knowledge of the game and the way he talks about other players and his own players… he is so good at being complimentary all the time, showing a different perspective. You might look at it and say, “That’s a big error; he should’ve made that play,” but he’ll explain it to you so that it’s not as easy as it looks.

We as players really appreciate that, because we’re like, “He does get it,” because they have somebody like Dallas Braden going, “Whoa, whoa—that’s actually exactly what he needs to do there.” That was just an example.

Robby Incmikoski: He obviously knows how hard the game is—he reached peak success throwing a perfect game, and then a year later he was out of it.

Jack Wilson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robby Incmikoski: Injuries played a part in that, but just how hard the game is. Man, I’m going to cut this recording, because that was just amazing.